Def - Ram 1500 Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 06-04-2014, 05:38 PM Thread Starter
zug
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Def

I was just wondering if anyone knows if the DEF can be removed and if this would increase the hp. I would think that it would, kinda the same as removing a cat.
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post #2 of 14 Old 06-05-2014, 11:22 AM
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I had read somewhere that you won't actually be able to delete later on. Although that could of been DPF, can't remember... but DPF delete is more like removing the cat anyways...
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post #3 of 14 Old 06-05-2014, 11:35 AM
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Would you ever consider an EGR delete?
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post #4 of 14 Old 06-05-2014, 12:57 PM
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Comming from the 6.7 world your best bet is to touch nothing; yes, with a huge invesment in time and money, you can get rid of everything the EPA mandates, but it will probably not go much faster, as it's pretty small in displacment, and may be maxed out already. Being that small you would have to upgrade nearly everything just to get what a 6.7 is with basic deletes and a tuner (I'm pushing 400+ and over 800 with my tuner in Performance, stock fuel and turbo-for now). You would also need to stud the heads, add a performance exhaust, and a bunch of other stuff to have a prayer of reliablility.

Think about it another way; how many modern gasser trucks and cars running today remove their cats and EGR systems to gain power? None, because the computers are designed to run with them, and deleting actually hurts performance and economy.

To sum it up; yes, it probably can be done, but will not make financial sense to do so. The only reason I would even consider it would be for engine longevity, as DEF is only to kill soot post turbo, meaning you still get all that crap running through it and your charge cooler. However, it looks like a very efficient design and may never be an issue. I would still consider having the system cleaned fairly regularly.

Last edited by norfla71; 06-05-2014 at 12:59 PM.
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post #5 of 14 Old 06-05-2014, 04:22 PM Thread Starter
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I have to humbly disagree with you. Yes modern trucks, cars and bikes are designed to run with the new type of exhaust because they have to in order to meet emissions requirements. If you allow the engine to breathe without restriction and change the input (either flash the ECU or add a piggy back system), you will get better performance and fuel mileage, no question.

I have not tuned many cars but I work on bikes a fair bit. The first thing anyone does to improve performance is to put on a pipe and add a piggy back system or flash the ECU. Older bikes would require re-jetting and/or different needles and changing the air filter.
Take for example my last bike. Stock bike (with CAT) made 162 hp at the rear wheel. Removing the CAT and installing a slip on and a piggy back system called a Power Commander V with a map built for that pipe increased the HP to 181. Nothing else was done to the bike.

Yes it may be considered "small" by American standards but it is average everywhere else in the world. If I wanted that kind of hp and torque I would have gone with the 6.7. Most people don't need that kind of hp or torque. I use my truck as a daily driver and haul a trailer about once a month so having a truck with that much hp is complete overkill.

I am not trying to match the hp of an engine more than twice the size of mine, just wondering if anyone has done this or if they know what's involved.

There is no way that this engine is maxed out from the factory. In Europe they have been tuning diesel engines for years. I had a 335d and that put out 265 hp and 425 torque which is very close to what this one does and that was a bi-turbo. Through diesel tuning UK I got their plug and play system and it boosted the hp to 315 and the torque to 480. This is without changing the pipe, removing their version of the DEF or anything else. These engines can be tuned very effectively. I am sure you can get close to 350 hp and 500 ft lb of torque with a system like this and changing the pipe.
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post #6 of 14 Old 06-05-2014, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by zug View Post
I have to humbly disagree with you. Yes modern trucks, cars and bikes are designed to run with the new type of exhaust because they have to in order to meet emissions requirements. If you allow the engine to breathe without restriction and change the input (either flash the ECU or add a piggy back system), you will get better performance and fuel mileage, no question.

I have not tuned many cars but I work on bikes a fair bit. The first thing anyone does to improve performance is to put on a pipe and add a piggy back system or flash the ECU. Older bikes would require re-jetting and/or different needles and changing the air filter.
Take for example my last bike. Stock bike (with CAT) made 162 hp at the rear wheel. Removing the CAT and installing a slip on and a piggy back system called a Power Commander V with a map built for that pipe increased the HP to 181. Nothing else was done to the bike.

Yes it may be considered "small" by American standards but it is average everywhere else in the world. If I wanted that kind of hp and torque I would have gone with the 6.7. Most people don't need that kind of hp or torque. I use my truck as a daily driver and haul a trailer about once a month so having a truck with that much hp is complete overkill.

I am not trying to match the hp of an engine more than twice the size of mine, just wondering if anyone has done this or if they know what's involved.

There is no way that this engine is maxed out from the factory. In Europe they have been tuning diesel engines for years. I had a 335d and that put out 265 hp and 425 torque which is very close to what this one does and that was a bi-turbo. Through diesel tuning UK I got their plug and play system and it boosted the hp to 315 and the torque to 480. This is without changing the pipe, removing their version of the DEF or anything else. These engines can be tuned very effectively. I am sure you can get close to 350 hp and 500 ft lb of torque with a system like this and changing the pipe.
My point is there is no way you would ever recoup the cost. I've upgraded a couple of diesels over the years; except for all the EPA garbage on the 6.7, which was done for longevity, I didn't save enough fuel, nor did I put enough into upgrades to get any real power upgrades, but still wound up spending between $4,000 and $6,000 in the process, not to mention other related parts failures after upgrades. Personally, I'm with you; I'll use mine to commute and for family trips. If I start messing with it I'm guaranteed to incur repair bills that I don't need.

I'm sure the usual upgrades are in the work, but the EPA has cracked down over the last couple of years, so things like deletes will probably be outrageously expensive. I'm guessing H&S, Edge and others are already working on an emissions friendly tuning, but all out upgrades may be out of reach of Joe Average. The larger engines have been out long enough that upgrade parts are relatively cheap and readily available; however, even those are becoming harder to mod now. I can see anything other that DPF back exhaust and high flow air cleaners being about the only things available.

Last edited by norfla71; 06-05-2014 at 06:47 PM.
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post #7 of 14 Old 06-06-2014, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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I see your point.

Did not think that it would be that expensive and also did not think that it would cause so many issues. Normally allowing an engine to breathe better makes the engine work better not worse.
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post #8 of 14 Old 06-08-2014, 08:22 AM
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When you start messing with OEM tuning and operation, especially on a lower production engine, there will be issues. New engines are so finite in their operation, the OEM's have made it really difficult to crack the ECM (it took Edge years to crack Toyo's) and the ED is sure to have a doozy of one. Also, being so (relatively) small in production numbers (at least for now) I don't think it makes economic sense to create a performance market for it just yet, which is why I keep pinging on cost/return ratio. Die hard modder's will surely find a way; there is always a core group who refuse to leave anything alone. Again, I don't think the internals or supporting systems will handle the power levels some will seek.

A final thought; I don't trust these engine to go the same distances as the Cummins without major failures. To that end, the only way I would buy one is with a lifetime warranty. If I can get one (question is if one will be offered for the diesels) there is no way I want to waste $3,500 by changing anything; a set of injectors, failed turbo, or DPF will cover that easily.
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post #9 of 14 Old 06-08-2014, 09:26 AM
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DO keep in mind this engine did have some time over in Europe already, plus its been in the GC Eco for some times as well. Now that Maserati is using it as well I think you'll see options and good ones too. But seriously I had read on another site (not sure about truth) that the engine had been physically designed to hinder deletes of any kind... Wish I could remember where I had comes across that...
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post #10 of 14 Old 06-09-2014, 12:20 PM
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Just to put a point to it, the only current tuning available is in the UK, since they are not subject to the same fines as our tuners. According to what I read, it's about $600 (with shipping) to get the ECU tuned for one of two programs, which can also turn off the DPF, DEF and EGR. The DPF is easy enough to delete; just unbolt and put a piece of straight pipe in place. Also recommended is not removing the EGR system. However, if someone does this, and the engine self destructs, you may be looking at a 5 figure repair bill.

I'll let other's play here first before I consider it.
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