Factoring in Additional Costs

12624 Views 19 Replies 7 Participants Last post by tugboat, Feb 27, 2014

Accused

Discussion Starter · Feb 20, 2014

I'm just wondering about factoring in additional maintenance costs to the lifetime cost of the EcoDiesel. I've never owned a diesel before so many of these costs are new or misunderstood by me to a degree, so go easy.

Starting with the $3000 premium for the Motori EcoDiesel engine then adding in...

Glow plugs, I know Diesels don't use the glow plugs nearly as often as spark plugs, but when they do go I do know they are going to be substantially more expensive. How often are glow plugs expected to go/need replacing?

DEF will be a regular expense as will be swapping the particulate filters. How often do these require maintenance?

I live in a cold climate (North East) and I've heard that additives may be needed to keep the fuel from jelling.

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LCR

· #2 · Feb 20, 2014

1. the premium will be negated on resale when it's worth $3000 more than a gasser in 5-10years or buy the fuel savings which ever way you wan't to look at it. Even the Ford 6.0 which is considered a failure by most still has a higher resale than it's gas counterpart

2. Never heard of glow plugs being a maintenance item have put hundreds of thousands of miles on HD diesels and never had a problem anymore than a head gasket blowing or water pump failure on a gasser.

3. DEF if bought at truckstops is ~2.80/gal but lests say you buy those square boxes at the auto store is about 5.60/gal and you'll fill up 8 gal every 10k miles according to ram so 44.80 every fill up or $672 over 150,000 miles if $700 is a deal breaker over 5-10 years than you're cutting your costs way too close.

Gelling of diesel isn't really a problem until -10F to -20Fand even then in the winter months up north fuel stations switch to whats called #1 diesel which helps prevent that. Gelling and additives is mostly when people let their trucks sit for days or weeks without driving. so unless you see zero or sub-zero temps where you live ignore the gelling. It's for upper midwest and Canada

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DieselTech69

· #3 · Feb 21, 2014

The resale will definitely be more, but I doubt it will remain dollar-for-dollar over the lifetime of the truck, so I think $3,000 is aiming a bit high. Maybe $2,000.

I just checked KBB on the trade in on a 2010 RAM 2500, CC 4x4 8' box, Longhorn with 100,000 miles, equally equipped 6.7L vs. 5.7L, and here's what it showed for trade in value:

Diesel: $23,620
Gas:$18,145

That's a difference of about $5,500. The option cost to get a diesel over gas in a 3/4 ton is about $8,000, so use that as a guide I guess. So, I'd say the $2,000 I quoted above is likely what you could expect after 4 or 5 years.

Now, the mileage factor based just on fuel consumption, will largely depend on how many miles you drive a year. For the sake of this example, let's say you keep the truck 5 years and put 100k on it; that's 20k/yr.

So, 100,000 miles at an average of 28 mpg (and you won't average that, but I'll just use what is "published" for hwy mpg) would equate to about 3572 gallons of diesel, and at a hypothetical $3.97/gallon (national average as of today, which is 50 cents less than what it is in my region) equals about $14,180 in fuel expenses for those 5 years. DEF not included, but I'll go with what was already posted and say $450.

Now, gas truck (5.7L Hemi): lets say you get 20 mpg average for same number of miles at national average for mid-grade ($3.56/gal) = $17,800 in fuel for 5 years, or about $3000 more after you factor in DEF costs. Seems as if you have broken even already, right? Paid $3000 more for truck, save $3000 in fuel....ahhh, but how much did you spend on maintenance? Let's see.....

Diesel: oil changes every 10k at $60 each = $600, plus fuel filters (at least 5 of them, likely double that) at $15 each = $75 to $150, so total is let's say $700.

Gas: oil changes every 5k at $40 each = $400. No fuel filter to worry about (it's in the tank, on the pump). It, as well as the spark plugs, should last 100,000 miles (not that I'd leave the plugs in that long....but hey, if you're trading it in, why replace them?).

So, now the diesel has cost you about $700 more out-of-pocket based just on these calculations, and this is best-case mpg figures. Also, when you trade it in, you will "lose" another ~$1000 on the trade in value vs. the additional cost for the diesel option (and this assumes a cash purchase or 0% interest rate - if you are paying interest on a loan, add that expense as well into the "loss" figure).

Ok, now some additional costs that you may incur that are not calculated here: fuel additives, tire cost (the truck weighs more so will therefore wear tires more quickly), insurance cost (the diesel will likely cost more to insure), and out-of-warranty repairs (if you keep it longer than 5 yrs/100k).

If the spread between diesel and gas fuel prices is more than the national average (as it is here where I live), then that fuel savings dwindles away quickly. In my example above, it would have added about $1700 to my (local) fuel expense, negative over half of the "fuel savings"!!!

So, as I've said before, I'm not so sure a diesel is more cost effective over the long term. Unless you tow frequently.......or keep it literally forever (and then the trade-in value advantage is next to nothing).

Just my thoughts and observations.......doesn't mean I'm right.

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tugboat

· #4 · Feb 21, 2014

wow that is one long read!

thanks again for sharing. lots to think about. i don't think the diesel is going to cost that much more for maintenance if any more.

return on mileage just really depends on how much you drive really.

L.O.A.

· #5 · Feb 22, 2014

tugboat said:
wow that is one long read!

thanks again for sharing. lots to think about. i don't think the diesel is going to cost that much more for maintenance if any more.

return on mileage just really depends on how much you drive really.

How much you drive will definitely matter.
people who go on a lot of long distance driving and even city driving should see a big difference.

The Diesel Guy

· #6 · Feb 22, 2014

DieselTech69 said:
The resale will definitely be more, but I doubt it will remain dollar-for-dollar over the lifetime of the truck, so I think $3,000 is aiming a bit high. Maybe $2,000.

I just checked KBB on the trade in on a 2010 RAM 2500, CC 4x4 8' box, Longhorn with 100,000 miles, equally equipped 6.7L vs. 5.7L, and here's what it showed for trade in value:

Diesel: $23,620
Gas:$18,145

That's a difference of about $5,500. The option cost to get a diesel over gas in a 3/4 ton is about $8,000, so use that as a guide I guess. So, I'd say the $2,000 I quoted above is likely what you could expect after 4 or 5 years.

Now, the mileage factor based just on fuel consumption, will largely depend on how many miles you drive a year. For the sake of this example, let's say you keep the truck 5 years and put 100k on it; that's 20k/yr.

So, 100,000 miles at an average of 28 mpg (and you won't average that, but I'll just use what is "published" for hwy mpg) would equate to about 3572 gallons of diesel, and at a hypothetical $3.97/gallon (national average as of today, which is 50 cents less than what it is in my region) equals about $14,180 in fuel expenses for those 5 years. DEF not included, but I'll go with what was already posted and say $450.

Now, gas truck (5.7L Hemi): lets say you get 20 mpg average for same number of miles at national average for mid-grade ($3.56/gal) = $17,800 in fuel for 5 years, or about $3000 more after you factor in DEF costs. Seems as if you have broken even already, right? Paid $3000 more for truck, save $3000 in fuel....ahhh, but how much did you spend on maintenance? Let's see.....

Diesel: oil changes every 10k at $60 each = $600, plus fuel filters (at least 5 of them, likely double that) at $15 each = $75 to $150, so total is let's say $700.

Gas: oil changes every 5k at $40 each = $400. No fuel filter to worry about (it's in the tank, on the pump). It, as well as the spark plugs, should last 100,000 miles (not that I'd leave the plugs in that long....but hey, if you're trading it in, why replace them?).

So, now the diesel has cost you about $700 more out-of-pocket based just on these calculations, and this is best-case mpg figures. Also, when you trade it in, you will "lose" another ~$1000 on the trade in value vs. the additional cost for the diesel option (and this assumes a cash purchase or 0% interest rate - if you are paying interest on a loan, add that expense as well into the "loss" figure).

Ok, now some additional costs that you may incur that are not calculated here: fuel additives, tire cost (the truck weighs more so will therefore wear tires more quickly), insurance cost (the diesel will likely cost more to insure), and out-of-warranty repairs (if you keep it longer than 5 yrs/100k).

If the spread between diesel and gas fuel prices is more than the national average (as it is here where I live), then that fuel savings dwindles away quickly. In my example above, it would have added about $1700 to my (local) fuel expense, negative over half of the "fuel savings"!!!

So, as I've said before, I'm not so sure a diesel is more cost effective over the long term. Unless you tow frequently.......or keep it literally forever (and then the trade-in value advantage is next to nothing).

Just my thoughts and observations.......doesn't mean I'm right.

UH ! Excuse me ! but where are you coming from. Are you sitting home with nothing better to do but think up this stuff ?

Diesel oil change 10k $60
Gas oil change 5k $ 40 ( what are you talking about ? )
At 10k the gas is $80 thats more then the Diesel, and the Diesel only holds 4 quarts more which is $50 not $60. And where are you getting your information that you prob, need 4 more filters then a gas truck. Diesel fuel now days is as clean as gas. Maybe a filter change at 50k. And usually glow plugs last for 100,000.00 miles with no problem as long as you keep people out from under the hood that don't have a clue what there doing under there. ( like your average back yard mechanic )

Sorry but you know nothing about a Diesel truck or what the actual cost is and you never will until you own one yourself.
I hear this all the time from people that have never owned a Diesel and they haven't a clue what there talking about.

Sorry.. But I Had to vent on this one......

DieselTech69

· #7 · Feb 22, 2014 (Edited)

Dude, you don't know me, or anything about me! You are going to make yourself look like an idiot on here if you continue to make statements like the ones you've made. Don't take this sh!t personal man, but come on! And just so you know, I don't give a rats a$$ what you (or anyone else) think of me. I post what I post so others can have another take on things.

I was an ASE Master Certified DIESEL TECHNICIAN for over 16 years. I competed in the NY Motor Truck Association SuperTech competition twice (2004 & 2008), winning multiple events AND I was the State Champion in the 2008 competition. I also competed in the 2008 SuperTech National competition and won the Electronics event. I managed a 14,000 sf, 10-bay, 2-shift truck shop for 2 years after that before I went on Active Duty in the Army. So, yeah, I guess I don't know sh!t.

I estimated everything in my post, based on my KNOWLEDGE, TRAINING and EXPERIENCE.

A RAM 1500 with the 3.0 VM will require 8 quarts of 5w30 synthetic oil (according to a quick Google search). 2 gallons of a quality synthetic oil will cost $40-50, depending on where you get it. A quality oil filter will cost at least $10. And that's the DIY cost, which totals $40-60. Take it to a dealer, jiffy lube or whatever, and that price will go up, likely almost double that, so I think $60 was a fair estimate (I didn't realize it needed synthetic oil, so I based it on dealer price for an oil change, not DIY cost, but no matter). I based this on a 10k oil change interval - I don't know what the OEM recommends for this engine, and if I owned it it would get an oil change every 5k (I change the oil on my gas vehicles every 3k), so that was also a conservative estimate in my opinion.

Ditto on the gas truck estimates. As a matter of fact, I was just at the dealer collision shop yesterday picking up my son's car after repairs, and a standard 5-quart oil change/safety inspection is $39.95. A gas truck would be more than this.

As for fuel filters, I'm not sure what the OEM recommends for replacement, but I believe the Jeep Cherokee version of this engine has a 50k/25k (regular service/severe service) recommendation, and the filter is around $40. So my calculations were based on a $15 filter every 20k, so the filter expense would likely be higher than my estimate based on this information. If you knew anything about modern injectors, you'd know that fuel cleanliness and quality are super-important. Tolerances are extremely tight on these things, and the slightest contamination causes all sorts of issues. Luckily, all the OEMs are going peizo injector/common rail fuel systems - the HEUI systems on the older PSD's (6.0 especially) were very sensitive to oil cleanliness and quality as well.

I didn't say a word about glow plugs, I was talking about SPARK PLUGS in the gas truck. Do you know how to READ? Go back and re-read my post very carefully, please. It was pretty clear that I was talking about spark plugs.

So, I will stand by my post 100%. If you REALLY want to dispute my information, feel free to post some actual evidence (other than your "expert" opinion). I am prepared to do that right now. I will call the dealer and get the information on the ecoDiesel and what the OEM maintenance recommendations are, and the cost of said services, and post them here for all the world to see. I bet my estimates are low.

Also, once these trucks are out of warranty, IF there is an engine issue, it will be significantly more expensive to diagnose and repair, compared to a gas engine. Have you ever had to have an injector replaced in a diesel? The injector costs $200+ (each) just for the injector, not including labor, other parts, or diagnosis. I've seen 6.0 PSD's that needed multiple injectors, EGR cooler, oil cooler, HEUI pump, IPR valve/ICP sensor, etc. and I don't think I've ever seen the total bill be less than $500, with injector jobs topping $2000 easy. I won't even get into things like VGT turbo replacement or major mechanical repairs and the associated costs...

If you like, I can email you my credentials and certifications, since this website refuses to allow me to upload them as JPEG images (I get a file type error). If I can figure it out, I'll put them in my profile or my signature or something, or post them here later.

Sorry, I just had to "vent".......

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tugboat

· #8 · Feb 23, 2014

how much does oil even cost anyways.. change your own oil.. i dont even consider it a cost.

DieselTech69

· #9 · Feb 24, 2014

Depends on the type of oil. You may not consider it a cost, but it is, just like other maintenance and repairs, as well as insurance and fuel. It all adds up, but maybe if you are wealthy it doesn't matter (I'm not wealthy, so it matters to me). I calculated how much I've spent in fuel to drive my truck too, and it was almost twice what I paid for the truck NEW. That's alot of money, man! One reason I'm considering a diesel for my next truck.

I prefer Valvoline 10w30 conventional oil in my truck (gas engine), and I change it every 3,000 miles, along with the filter (I use Bosch filters). The oil is about $16 for a 5-qt jug, I need about 7.5 qts. for my truck, so it takes 3 jugs and 2 filters every 6,000 miles. The filters are about $12, so its $16x3=$48 + $24=$72 for 2 oil changes, or about $36 each.

I've had my truck since new, and will hit 250,000 miles in about 2 weeks, so I've changed the oil 82 times now. 82x$36=$2952 over the 9 years I've had the truck, or about $330/yr.

15w40 Delo 400 or something equivalent for a diesel is about $12 a gallon, and a diesel usually takes more oil (the 6.7 Cummins takes 12 qts.). Filters are about the same cost, so it's slightly more for an oil change, but you can go about 5,000 miles between changes. Or you can go synthetic oil (about $20-25/gallon) and then double that to 10k, which makes the cost go down even more, if you are comfortable with that. For me, it's every 3k on a gas, 5k on a diesel on conventional oil, filter every time. I consider it cheap insurance. I've been doing it this way for a long time, and I've never had a major engine failure or oil leak on any of my vehicles, and I keep them a while and rack up the miles (my 1996 Cavalier had 188k when I gave it to my brother-in-law in 2005, my wife's 2005 Grand Am had 91k on it before it was totalled after less than 3 years, my truck has almost 250k, and my wife's 2013 Elantra has 51k on it, and we've had it less than 18 months!). Yeah, we drive alot.......

I attribute the high miles and lack of engine issues to my oil change intervals. But, to each his own....

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motoman006

· #10 · Feb 24, 2014

we bought 3 trucks the day we went to the dealer ship
all big horn rams with the same options
the dealer got us the one ecodiesel we ordered for only $1300 more then the HEMI versions that we ordered
we bought 3 trucks i would imagine got a good discount

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DieselTech69

· #11 · Feb 25, 2014

Looks like you did get a decent deal on the diesel, but just out of curiosity, what did you pay for each truck? Maybe they made up for it by charging more for the 2 gassers. Why didn't you get 3 diesels?

Also of note, I have a correction to some numbers I posted previously regarding oil change pricing: looks like the Mopar oil filter is actually 3-4 times more expensive that the $10 I estimated for a quality filter (at least, at the moment). So that increases the oil change cost by $20-30 each oil change, or at least 30%. Just thought I'd point that out, since it makes the maintenance costs for the ecoDiesel even higher than I estimated.

motoman006

· #12 · Feb 25, 2014 (Edited)

Boss wanted two hemi's
The diesel was for me he wAnts to test one before he buys 5-6 of them
And he didn't know we was going to order a diesel
We ordered two hemi's on a Friday
Returned Monday to order the diesel
We did get good prices we did work for the GM on his home

Also to whoever is talking about glow plus
Some diesels don't use them they use grid heaters
The cummins did away with them several years ago they don't use glowplugs they have grid heaters for starting
Not sure if this engine has a grid heater or glowplugs on it

Also I read the diesel vs hemi only weights like 75-90 lbs more if comparing a quad can with same options

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tugboat

· #13 · Feb 25, 2014

why is it that diesels are so heavy? is it just the block?

Accused

Discussion Starter · #14 · Feb 25, 2014

Great inputs guys, really appreciate the information as I'm sure many non posters do as well

@motoman006 its glow plugs for the Motori EcoDiesel, from Chryslers Press release

EcoDiesel’s fast-acting, high-temperature glow plugs operate at higher temperatures than conventional metallic glow plugs. The result is enhanced performance and durability.

They don't go into details of what makes these glow plugs capable of withstanding higher temps, without the justification I'm a bit concerned about the longevity. I know they say more durable, but its not exactly illegal to lie or sorry, bend truth...

as for the block, from the same presser

The engine, with its 16.5:1 compression ratio, is shouldered by a bedplate and cylinder block of Compacted Graphite Iron (CGI).

CGI is engineered to ensure graphite is more uniformly dispersed, which delivers higher strength, enhances durability and reduces noise, vibration and harshness – a focus of many EcoDiesel design features, such as its structural aluminum oil pan.

http://media.chrysler.com/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=261496F8654C358C1906B742C47DBCAC?&id=14486&mid=1

The Diesel Guy

· #15 · Feb 26, 2014

DieselTech69 said:
Dude, you don't know me, or anything about me! You are going to make yourself look like an idiot on here if you continue to make statements like the ones you've made. Don't take this sh!t personal man, but come on! And just so you know, I don't give a rats a$$ what you (or anyone else) think of me. I post what I post so others can have another take on things.

I was an ASE Master Certified DIESEL TECHNICIAN for over 16 years. I competed in the NY Motor Truck Association SuperTech competition twice (2004 & 2008), winning multiple events AND I was the State Champion in the 2008 competition. I also competed in the 2008 SuperTech National competition and won the Electronics event. I managed a 14,000 sf, 10-bay, 2-shift truck shop for 2 years after that before I went on Active Duty in the Army. So, yeah, I guess I don't know sh!t.

I estimated everything in my post, based on my KNOWLEDGE, TRAINING and EXPERIENCE.

A RAM 1500 with the 3.0 VM will require 8 quarts of 5w30 synthetic oil (according to a quick Google search). 2 gallons of a quality synthetic oil will cost $40-50, depending on where you get it. A quality oil filter will cost at least $10. And that's the DIY cost, which totals $40-60. Take it to a dealer, jiffy lube or whatever, and that price will go up, likely almost double that, so I think $60 was a fair estimate (I didn't realize it needed synthetic oil, so I based it on dealer price for an oil change, not DIY cost, but no matter). I based this on a 10k oil change interval - I don't know what the OEM recommends for this engine, and if I owned it it would get an oil change every 5k (I change the oil on my gas vehicles every 3k), so that was also a conservative estimate in my opinion.

Ditto on the gas truck estimates. As a matter of fact, I was just at the dealer collision shop yesterday picking up my son's car after repairs, and a standard 5-quart oil change/safety inspection is $39.95. A gas truck would be more than this.

As for fuel filters, I'm not sure what the OEM recommends for replacement, but I believe the Jeep Cherokee version of this engine has a 50k/25k (regular service/severe service) recommendation, and the filter is around $40. So my calculations were based on a $15 filter every 20k, so the filter expense would likely be higher than my estimate based on this information. If you knew anything about modern injectors, you'd know that fuel cleanliness and quality are super-important. Tolerances are extremely tight on these things, and the slightest contamination causes all sorts of issues. Luckily, all the OEMs are going peizo injector/common rail fuel systems - the HEUI systems on the older PSD's (6.0 especially) were very sensitive to oil cleanliness and quality as well.

I didn't say a word about glow plugs, I was talking about SPARK PLUGS in the gas truck. Do you know how to READ? Go back and re-read my post very carefully, please. It was pretty clear that I was talking about spark plugs.

So, I will stand by my post 100%. If you REALLY want to dispute my information, feel free to post some actual evidence (other than your "expert" opinion). I am prepared to do that right now. I will call the dealer and get the information on the ecoDiesel and what the OEM maintenance recommendations are, and the cost of said services, and post them here for all the world to see. I bet my estimates are low.

Also, once these trucks are out of warranty, IF there is an engine issue, it will be significantly more expensive to diagnose and repair, compared to a gas engine. Have you ever had to have an injector replaced in a diesel? The injector costs $200+ (each) just for the injector, not including labor, other parts, or diagnosis. I've seen 6.0 PSD's that needed multiple injectors, EGR cooler, oil cooler, HEUI pump, IPR valve/ICP sensor, etc. and I don't think I've ever seen the total bill be less than $500, with injector jobs topping $2000 easy. I won't even get into things like VGT turbo replacement or major mechanical repairs and the associated costs...

If you like, I can email you my credentials and certifications, since this website refuses to allow me to upload them as JPEG images (I get a file type error). If I can figure it out, I'll put them in my profile or my signature or something, or post them here later.

Sorry, I just had to "vent".......

( I was an ASE Master Certified DIESEL TECHNICIAN )

So what are you doing now if you are such a big wig ?

Your post was at 1:11 in the afternoon. this forum is on pst. If you look at my post I posted at at 8:45 est Which is actually 5:45 pm. That is just after I got home from work. Your post was at 4:11 so that means that your post was at 1:11 durning the middle of the day.

( If your such a big tech, shouldn't you be at work at 1:11 )

I have a real job and I'm a business owner of a repair shop for over 30 yrs. I don't have time to come on here all day just to tell everyone I'm some master mechanic. I'm in the real world every day and can certainly tell when some one is just talkin a bunch of crap from a book.

I have been on some of the best forums there is, and one of them is
SPEED TALK. It's a forum for professional engine builders. THATS WHAT I DO. DIESEL AND GAS ENGINES.

Get a life........

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DieselTech69

· #16 · Feb 26, 2014

The Diesel Guy said:
( I was an ASE Master Certified DIESEL TECHNICIAN )

So what are you doing now if you are such a big wig ?

I'm on Active Duty in the US Army, stationed at Fort Drum. Again, if you were to actually read what I wrote, I stated that I WAS an ASE Master Certified Diesel Tech and that I was on AD in the Army. Oh, I'm still master certified, just not a working tech anymore. I never claimed to be a "big wig" - only what my accomplishments as a tech were, all of which I can prove.

I have yet to see you refute my claims with any evidence either (to be clear, I'm talking about the costs associated with owning a diesel truck vs. gas).

The Diesel Guy said:
Your post was at 1:11 in the afternoon. this forum is on pst. If you look at my post I posted at at 8:45 est Which is actually 5:45 pm. That is just after I got home from work. Your post was at 4:11 so that means that your post was at 1:11 durning the middle of the day.

( If your such a big tech, shouldn't you be at work at 1:11 )

I'm not sure what your point is here. Maybe I get my lunch from 1-1:30, maybe I work 2nd or 3rd shift - there are more shifts than just 9-5 if you are in the truck repair industry (again, I indicated this in my post when I mentioned that I managed a 2-shift shop previously), you know. But, I'm not a tech anymore, and if you must know, I was on leave when I made that post, after working 12 consecutive days. I notice you are in NY as well. Where exactly? Rochester? Watertown? Maybe we know each other, it's a small world after all. If we happened to know each other in "real life" previously, I guarantee your attitude with me would be much different.

The Diesel Guy said:
I have a real job and I'm a business owner of a repair shop for over 30 yrs. I don't have time to come on here all day just to tell everyone I'm some master mechanic. I'm in the real world every day and can certainly tell when some one is just talkin a bunch of crap from a book.

I have been on some of the best forums there is, and one of them is
SPEED TALK. It's a forum for professional engine builders. THATS WHAT I DO. DIESEL AND GAS ENGINES.

I guess defending our country is not a real job, like yours is. A business owner does not make you an expert, at anything. For someone with no time to come on here, you seem to be able to respond to my lengthy posts (that you likely don't even read all the way through). Maybe you spend too much time on SPEED TALK.

And about that; I took a look at this forum, it is hardly a "professional" forum. Not that there aren't professionals that frequent that forum, I'm not saying that. But, any idiot could join it and CLAIM to be an expert (same here on this forum). Want to see a REAL forum for REAL PROFESSIONALS, point your browser to International Automotive Technicians Network - iATN. That's a professional forum for professional techs. You need to have 4 years of verifiable experience to join that forum (or ASE certification), and it costs quarterly dues to access them fully (write access, not just read access and other limitations). That's how they make sure its a forum for professionals, and not wanna-be's. I've been a member since 1997.

You can certainly tell when someone is talkin a bunch of crap from a book? Please point out all the "crap from a book" that I posted. Go ahead and give me a rebuttal to the information I provided; dispute my claims with some evidence, facts, something besides your opinion!

I really hate dealing with people on forums that act the way you are acting. You came on here after me and attempted to make the case that I don't know what I'm talking about, where'd I get my info, blah blah blah. I gave you more information to support my stance, as well as some background on me to try to give some credibility to my posts with you, since up to that point, it's simply your "word" versus "mine", and nobody knows either of us on here from jump street (well, that may just be an assumption, but I'll make it anyway). Point is, you called me out (I presume) because you disagree with my information, yet provided no credible evidence to support your side. I believe I have posted plenty of credible information. You also start this whole thing with a personal attack on me, insinuating that I: 1) don't know anything about this subject and am clueless (as I "don't own a diesel truck"); 2) don't have a real job; and 3) have no life.

I tried to be as polite as possible in my replies despite your "Attitude" with me. I try to answer your questions with thoughtful and meaningful responses. I have not resorted to personal attacks on you. I have pointed out (what I believe to be) factual information, to the best of my knowledge. You can't even (apparently) do the same, so that we could have a meaningful "debate" over "facts".

I'm not wasting any more of my time with you on this subject. Feel free to NOT respond, I won't mind at all, since from now on I will ignore your posts if they continue to follow this same pattern - I HAVE a life, and I refuse to let you (or anyone else) suck it out of me on an internet forum by dragging me further into a pointless argument that I didn't even start. You have so far had nothing positive to contribute to this thread.

DT69, OUT.

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DieselTech69

· #17 · Feb 26, 2014

Accused said:
Great inputs guys, really appreciate the information as I'm sure many non posters do as well

Thanks man!

Accused said:
@motoman006 its glow plugs for the Motori EcoDiesel, from Chryslers Press release

They don't go into details of what makes these glow plugs capable of withstanding higher temps, without the justification I'm a bit concerned about the longevity. I know they say more durable, but its not exactly illegal to lie or sorry, bend truth...

They are most likely ceramic, and why they typically last much longer.

Accused said:
as for the block, from the same presser

http://media.chrysler.com/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=261496F8654C358C1906B742C47DBCAC?&id=14486&mid=1

Diesels typically have much higher compression ratios and higher cylinder pressures, so the block and head have to be beefier to withstand it, hence the additional weight. In addition, cranks are almost always forged, not cast (again, for strength). Gas engines can get away with cast cranks (which weigh less, due to being less dense). It all adds up.

Thanks for the info Accused. The technology in today's cars and trucks is amazing nowadays......but, it ain't cheap neither!

Accused

Discussion Starter · #18 · Feb 26, 2014

DieselTech69 said:
Thanks man!

They are most likely ceramic, and why they typically last much longer.

Diesels typically have much higher compression ratios and higher cylinder pressures, so the block and head have to be beefier to withstand it, hence the additional weight. In addition, cranks are almost always forged, not cast (again, for strength). Gas engines can get away with cast cranks (which weigh less, due to being less dense). It all adds up.

Thanks for the info Accused. The technology in today's cars and trucks is amazing nowadays......but, it ain't cheap neither!

Cheers DT!

Theres no point in spilling keystrokes on an internet pissing match. The information is greatly appreciated as already mentioned, and most if not all of it is easily verifiable through simple searching and reading, any self respecting person knows this!

Keep the info pouring in, as I come from a non technical background I greatly enjoy learning from all of you experts. I have a great respect for technicians, my Father was a Ford Tech for 30 years!

Actually as an aside, I'd love your take on Water/Meth systems. They first caught my attention with the power promises (inner kid you know) but now I'm starting to learn they can actually help keep your internals clean. Anything you could share or direct me to on this?

DieselTech69

· #19 · Feb 27, 2014 (Edited)

While I have no hands-on experience with water/meth systems, I have studied them and from what I understand, they can be quite effective on high-compression or forced induction (like most diesels are) to increase power, but only with a corresponding change in engine calibration.

Most of the increase in power will be from an increase in compression, timing, or boost pressure, which won't occur on a computer controlled engine unless there is a calibration change.

As far as keeping things clean, mostly the steam created I would think contributes to that - you can get the same effect by holding the throttle open at about 2500 rpm and using a spray bottle to spray water into the intake tract - though on MAF equipped engines this may be next to impossible to do. It helps to clean all the carbon off.

The two most reputable system manufacturers are Snow Performance and Banks Engineering. I highly recommend you visit their websites and look at the info they have there, lots of good info. Then call them, if you are serious about it, and ask lots of questions. I don't think you can go wrong with Banks, but that's just my personal opinion (not saying Snow isn't just as good, but it's like oil: which one is better, Pennzoil or Valvoline? Comes down to personal choice mostly).

I'm sorry I can't be of more help than that, really. And thanks for the vote of confidence.

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tugboat

· #20 · Feb 27, 2014

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